How science survives a war

Speakers
Denys Bondar, physicist and assistant professor, Tulane School of Science and Engineering
Keith Brannon, director of Public Relations, Tulane Communications and Marketing

Brannon
Welcome to On Good Authority, the podcast from Tulane University, where we bring you leading experts to talk about issues of the day and ideas that shape the world. I'm your host, Keith Brannon. The drive to make discoveries is strong. To be a successful scientist, you have to be persistent. That means overcoming setbacks, exploring pathways that may not pan out, and never giving up. But what happens when the world as you know it falls apart overnight? That's what happened to scientists in Ukraine last year when Russian forces invaded. Amid the turmoil, Tulane faculty made a research pact with counterparts in Kharkiv. The city is in the northeastern part of the country and the second largest in Ukraine. Just days later, the unthinkable happened. Their labs were hit by a missile strike and reduced to rubble. We're joined today by Tulane physicist Denys Bondar, who has been working with Ukrainian counterparts in his native country. He's here to talk about what has happened since the bombing and how the quest for science can survive a war. Denys is an assistant professor in the Department of Physics and Engineering Physics here at Tulane. Denys, welcome to On Good Authority.

Bondar
Thank you.

Brannon
So you have been working on a partnership with Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute. How did that come about?

Bondar
It came about because of war, basically. We were, we were actually originally contacted by the person who is responsible for international relationships at the Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute. We were put in touch with a with a group of, with a team of scientists led by Kseniia Minakova. And we had a really productive conversation first, like introductory conversation. It was amazing because we, they realized that they had a you know, like an 80-90% overlap in the scientific interest. This is, you know, this is actually really rare, it's exceptional.

Brannon
So, you know, at the time when these discussions were going, were going on, how was their research affected by the conflict?

Bondar
The Russian forces were able to enter the city on the outskirts, like the the northern, eastern part. Obviously, classes were suspended, but you had to, in some sense, find a new way to finish the academic year. You know, be in touch with students as soon as you can. So there was suddenly, like research was put on pause, right. They had to work out other immediate logistical issues of safety for the function of university. So by summer, what happened is that they already, sedation kind of became normalized in a way. And they had their classes resume. So the teaching, assuming they were in a new mode. It's a remarkable story, actually, how they did it because, you know, you have to understand that some of the students became, like, started being actually in occupied territories. It's a very, it's a very, and they had to, like sort of do exams, do lectures. It's amazing like, this is a, on its own, you know.

Brannon
Obviously, they were they were trying to resume teaching, but were they also doing active research there? I mean, were they, were they fearful that they could be attacked or that the building would be destroyed?

Bondar
So as Professor Kseniia Minakova told me that, you know, the idea is that the first few days was a paralyzing fear. But then this, she said, you know, you, you start working, because otherwise the alternative is just like be paralyzed by the fear, like you have to do something.

Brannon
So you have this conversation. And then hours later, you get an email. Take us back to that.

Bondar
I was supposed to literally help to shape samples to start actually doing joint experiments. And that's how we, we get this email that, with the photos attached to it, that the lab got struck by a missile, one of those modified surface-to-air missiles that the Russians use. They're basically, they're supposed to be missiles for air defense. So this attack happened at night. So there was luckily no, most of the people were not there except one night guard who was guarding this building. Yes, she has been, she has been killed, tragically.

Brannon
And for to paint a picture, there was a photo of one of the main research collaborators sitting in her lab atop a mound of rubble from the crumbled building.

Bondar
As she, as later she explained to me, right, so the chronological order is that after the missiles struck, they they were notified, of course. And what happens there, in Ukraine, you cannot if this happens, right, you are not allowed to come. Like people should not come to the site because it's actually dangerous, structure and sound, you know. It's the trouble, it may collapse, right.

Brannon
And there were pictures of her, her lab partners basically salvaging equipment from the destruction.

Bondar
Exactly. So this is what happened, the investigator came, checked. They recorded the, you know, the, this attack and sort of picked up the missiles, pieces of missiles, it means to for, you know, for investigation. And then they actually they just, they, despite all the danger, they actually went to try to salvage the equipment.

Brannon
And this was a lab that was studying solar energy and, and ways I guess, to make it more efficient.

Bondar
Exactly to solar energy. Broadly speaking, for heating for electricity, and they had prototypes, they were able to hide it sort of in the basement. So it was basically, according to them, it was almost not damaged. But still, everything else was was damaged, right. And so, when once we got going back to Tulane, to New Orleans, right, so we get this email with me and Escarra. I mean, you know, you look at the photos, as you said it, you know, that just there's no way. I mean, it's done, right. You don't know the story, right, that I just said. That we don't know. And then, you know, my, my friend Escarra tells me, “Look, you know, just write to them. Maybe we can really help.” And I really appreciate for that encouragement to send this simple email. And I sent them email that, “Look, I know, you know, this happened and but is there a way, any way we can help?” And the next day, they reply, “Yes, actually, you can help. You can help.” And I have to make a correction. This is when they reply, they sent us photos, because that took a couple of days to get, you know. And they said, “Look actually,” like they say this, “Look, apparently the most important thing, the most likely saveable prototype is there. As I said, they’re intact. Yes, we lost the very kind of important part of equipment infrastructure for preparation of samples as being lost. It's a kind of a vacuum chamber, big, big, big equipment, which could not have been moved, basically. It's a sort of part of the building, in a way. We've lost lots of the equipment and said like, but actually, for us to resume if you send us guys samples, for us to resume research, we actually we would appreciate if you could like, you know, we could get us with electronic equipment that you can buy, like multimeter, et cetera, solar power meter, infrared camera.”

Brannon
So you, you got with your, your fellow collaborators here, and you started sending them equipment and supplies?

Bondar
Yeah, basically, that's what happened. First of all, it was like private money, we bought some things for them. So and then then we have, Tulane University actually supported us with this. And they, I was able to use the Tulane, like internal Tulane funding. I mean, very much appreciated. It's from funding specifically from the School of Science and Engineering. So kudos to our dean.

Brannon
And the school signed a research partnership with their university?

Bondar
That's right. That's right. And it's all happening sort of in parallel. This these events, that memoranda of understanding to be to be sort of accurate between Tulane University, in particular the School of Science and Engineering, but it's ours, the whole university, and Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute, was signed, and that was, it was nice. It was like, it was one of those encouraging moments that we had that, you know, the like, upper-level administration of Dr. Robin Forman, the provost of research, was actually welcoming this development.

Brannon
What has happened since the bombing? What has happened with their labs? What is the status of their research?

Bondar
Yeah, so what happened is they were able to secure, relatively quickly, a new location, new location.  Of course, it's a smaller location, it's a small, it's not as spacious. It's not as, as you know, as sort of as it used to be. And remember that this was sort of, we were heading towards winter. And the winter was very difficult because basically the, you know, there was already information that, you know, Russians are going to basically target civilian infrastructure, which means heating, electricity, et cetera. So this made the situation even more tenuous, and what happened is the university started to, Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute started to, to kind of consolidate the buildings to basically to be able to guarantee in any way as much as possible, sort of like heating, basic utilities. And so they were able to get, so we thought we were not be able to get the space because of this, but now they were able to get the space. And very quickly with this equipment that we were sending, they were actually, were able to restore a minimal viable lab and, and resume research, resume research. And so, since then they received a bunch of samples from us, they were able to incur. So these are samples of actually solar cells, small pieces of solar cells that would have, you know, that would have to be incorporated in the design of their, in their designs. They were able to do this. And they were able to incorporate, unfortunately, during that process, because, you know, it's always trial and error process that sort of. So they need new samples now. Once they incorporate enough samples, we're working on getting a new batch of samples for them. So where I'm heading with this is like, it looks like we are going to have, you know, our first joint publication, like so there's in the not so distant future. And the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine, in Kyiv, actually launched an initiative ahead of, during summer they launched an initiative to, they wanted to support financially, developing of a new program that would sort of, you know, they could sort of fit the reality, right, the war reality, reality with the war. And, and as here, especially as I said, my my friends, Professor De Christie and Professor Escarra, they had, they had put together a proposal for for a program, educational program, which they called Alt Energy, which is alternative energy. It's a, it's a mini, it's a series of, it's a very nice actually program, sort of like a remote master’s program, which is with a series of lectures on all aspects of renewable energy. Starting from science technology of it and ending with a business policy business, and the lecturers were my colleagues from from from my department, also, colleagues from business school, in Freeman Business School. And actually other, several other professors from the United States and one also from Canada. And what's a really nice program, and it's actually just, I think it just finished. Lectures finished earlier, but then there were lectures and there was also kind of a project-based piece. And I think these lectures of the, of the program actually just finished, like, either last week or two weeks ago. And it was a very innovative program, because it focused the idea is that during the bombing campaign, the winter bombing campaign for civil infrastructure, it was pretty obvious that Ukrainian electric grid needed, needs you know, needs some new, like, it needs to be changed, basically. It needs to be changed. And also, you know, Ukraine is a signatory to all these initiatives to tackle the climate change. And it seems like a good, like the right not the good, but the right time to think about you know, workforce development for future energy needs, right.

Brannon
The case of losing power during this conflict, I would imagine has driven home the need for their research more than ever.

Bondar
Indeed, indeed. This is very, this is very important aspect, And so, there was this educational initiative, but also in parallel, our team started to actually write like real joint research proposals. We wrote a research proposal through the NATO Science for Peace Program. Unfortunately, we're not successful, but you know, that's okay. Because this is the first time we're writing.

Brannon
Have other universities been a part of this collaboration? Are they getting help from universities outside of Tulane?

Bondar
After this, we help them with this kind of you know, equipment. The press office of our School of Science and Engineering actually publishes like a story because it was a kind of how like a nice story you know, it's it ends really beautifully with Tulane’s motto “Not for oneself, but for one's own,” which is something exactly what happened. Several actually, this this story went actually to our surprise, like kind of viral, you know, not mega-viral, but viral nevertheless. And she told me that she was contacted by some actually companies, some company I don't remember exactly the name right now, but they were, they're based in Canada. And they design equipment for actually making artificial sun. You know, you want to have like a sun is, of course, you know, solar energy requires sun, but if you're a researcher, you don't really like real sun because you know, the clouds. That is like, you want to do experiments, you want to be able to do consistent experiments all the time, so you will have your own sun. And this is very expensive equipment, kind of custom, again as any like high-end research equipment, it's custom-made, and they offer them to actually, to send them for free because of this story that made them want to help. And this is how this collaboration. So they were, yes, so I think they're getting this kind of help from from other places. But we remain, I think, the main partner for them still.

Brannon
The story did go national. To another degree, it was featured in Nature.

Bondar
Yes, indeed, a very famous journal, Nature wrote, had a piece that they had, like several articles devoted to the year, one year of war, which was published in February of this year. And it was one part of this article, among other stories. Yes. So indeed, it was a, it was a kind of, shall we say, great honor, you know, to be featured in Nature. Unfortunately, the occasion was not that great, but it's, it's nice.

Brannon
On a personal level, what have you learned from this collaboration?

Bondar
What humans can, are capable of doing, it's amazing. Like, it's really insane. It's absolutely insane. And you learn, what what I've learned is that, you know, it's, it's you should just, you should never give up. You should like sort of, it's maybe it's very, like cliche to say this, but this really in a way does this work. And if you determine, if you work hard, you stay focused despite all the obstacles, and these obstacles are really, really like horrific. You know, the world is a nice place, actually. You will find people who understand, people who you can partner with, and you can succeed. You know, and this is this is just amazing. This is a very inspiring story, actually. And I hope this story can be replicated in many other places so forth, you know.

Brannon
What do you think the example of these researchers in Kharkiv can tell us about science and the drive to make those discoveries?

Bondar
In addition to all this, as I said, the research and teaching duties, right, they have also been the part of the resources that they themselves, after sort of, you know, working hours they have been volunteering. Doing like humanitarian work, helping people who are, you know, elderly, or single people who are just, you know, like, disabled people who are not, were not able to evacuate. So they were doing even like this humanitarian work, which is again, it's it's really amazing. I think, what's, so here, let me generalize, like, speaking for the sort of, for the entire Ukraine here. I mean, this war teaches a lot about the role of science and technology. In a way, of course, everybody was saying that Ukraine is going to collapse in a week or two maximum, right. You know, the most optimistic scenario was two weeks. But but no, it survived. And then, you know, the United States led the way in providing military help, and also humanitarian help should be mentioned. It’s not very often mentioned, but humanitarian help is very important.

Brannon
Were there any personal stories from your collaborators, in terms of their work, that really spoke to you?

Bondar
I was amazed by sort of, yes what spoke to me is this, besides that resilience, right, like sort of working, you know. There were, for example, a couple of months ago, there was attacks that destroyed like some utility station, like a thing, water station, and they didn't have like, you know, electricity at homeland for a week. Which means like, you don't have heat also. And you have to remember, it's like, it's not our, it's not Louisiana climate there, right. It's really tough, actually. I, actually, once during the superstorm Sandy, I was in Princeton, and, and we lost power also for a week. I remember, it was not fun. It was really not fun. One week without power was really tough. And, you know, but but then again, this is like, you know, this is superstorm, this is a storm, you know, yeah, it's over and you know, you lose power, and you know, that at some point it is going to be restored. But here like it's you lose power, you can constantly still be hit, right. The way they talk about it's like so like profound, this was very impressive. And also, they made me, the stories the way they sort of, how it happened, how the finals at their university, where some students were under occupied territories, and they had to do final exams. There was no, there's no internet connection, they would go to the field. It's, it's like it's a really dark comedy, you know, it's, yeah, some students, right, they were able to go to the Western Europe. And they, and they still like you know, they're still taking classes. So it's like they're not trying to get away with anything, like this is kind of amazing. Because as I just said before, this recognition of the value of the STEM education, right, how it directly played the role in defense, right. Of course, you know, military help, as I said, it's important. But, you know, let me give you an example, actually. If you remember a couple of years ago in Saudi Arabia, the oil production facility was attacked by Houthi rebels with a drone. And Saudi Arabia has like tons of patriots and like, they were all like, they just didn't see it, it was damaged differently. So it tells you that it's not just you have to have a good equipment, but you have to have good people, right. Appropriate people. So so it's, it's a new era, it's a new era. But of course, maybe this this right now sounds like a positive story. But the analysis is very challenging. It's very challenging. There's lots lots of, you know, tragic sort of, you know, it's, you know, people leaving, people experiencing extremely high economic hardship because the economy collapsed by 50%. It's amazing that they're still doing this and still fighting that's, that's, you know, yeah. I'm really grateful for all Tulane community and all actual people around the world who actually recognize the hardship.

Brannon
Well, Denys, thank you for joining us here today. And thank you for the work that you're doing.

Bondar
My pleasure, and I thank you for opportunity to talk about it and for the support that we are receiving from the Tulane community.

Brannon
Thanks for listening to this edition of On Good Authority. For more episodes, please visit tulane.edu/on-good-authority.